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Willie Hood
(@willhoo99)
Member Moderator
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 187
08/25/2020 6:47 pm  
Posted by: @detdawg
Posted by: @willhoo99
Posted by: @detdawg

So, apparently Clevinger will be added back to the roster tomorrow and start Wednesday's game against the Twins, replacing Plutko in the rotation.

In a perfect world, I would have kept Clevinger at the Alternate Site for another 5 days or so, and started Plesac instead.  My reasoning is that Clevinger is still trying to get back to his 2019 form, and Plesac has been pitching better than him.  IMO, it's better for the team to have Clevinger continuing to work on fixing his game, which is easier to do in a simulated game.  That said, I wouldn't want Clevinger's stay at Lake County to continue until it caused a year's delay in his scheduled FA, which is currently 2023.

All that said, I realize it's not a perfect world, and Clevinger has more senority than Plesac, is considered the better pitcher when healthy, and should be given certain considerations when determining who should be added back to the roster first.  So, I understand the decision made by the Indians.  I just think the team would be better off if Plesac were given the start tomorrow.  And I hope that Clevinger has figured things out in his short time at Lake County.

I hope he looks excellent and is dealt shortly after that.

Plesac otoh can sit in LC and wait for his turn. He did the crime, he can do the time. McKenzie certainly earned another start with an impressive performance on Saturday.

The Indians are not going to get full value for Clevinger if they trade him before the trade deadline.  And the team isn't in the position to get worse so that they can get rid of him.

Plesac is one of the best 28 players in the organization, whether it's as an SP or as an RP.  IMO, he should be added to the roster in the next week.  The Indians are better with him than having him pitch simulated games in Lake County.

I don't believe that.

How many people said, Trevor Bauer, killed his trade value?

That seemed to work out pretty well. There will be numerous teams looking to cut salary this offseason that will affect the demand directly as much or more than his incident.

I'm not suggesting trading Clevinger for the sake of trading him. They'd have to get their price. It's not a fool's errand or to teach him a lesson.

I  don't buy the belief the team gets worse without him. How?

They'd have to get a return that brings now impact. When the Rays dealt Archer, they got better. When the Tribe traded Bauer, they got better. They could make a deal and get better now and for later.

I'd add this is an ordinary team with plenty of potential. They'll have to make bold decisions to improve this team in the short term, including possibly dealing an arm like Clev. It all depends on the return, and if they don't address the offense, what is the point?


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DetDawg
(@detdawg)
Low-A dreamer
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 211
08/25/2020 7:04 pm  
Posted by: @willhoo99
Posted by: @detdawg
Posted by: @willhoo99
Posted by: @detdawg

So, apparently Clevinger will be added back to the roster tomorrow and start Wednesday's game against the Twins, replacing Plutko in the rotation.

In a perfect world, I would have kept Clevinger at the Alternate Site for another 5 days or so, and started Plesac instead.  My reasoning is that Clevinger is still trying to get back to his 2019 form, and Plesac has been pitching better than him.  IMO, it's better for the team to have Clevinger continuing to work on fixing his game, which is easier to do in a simulated game.  That said, I wouldn't want Clevinger's stay at Lake County to continue until it caused a year's delay in his scheduled FA, which is currently 2023.

All that said, I realize it's not a perfect world, and Clevinger has more senority than Plesac, is considered the better pitcher when healthy, and should be given certain considerations when determining who should be added back to the roster first.  So, I understand the decision made by the Indians.  I just think the team would be better off if Plesac were given the start tomorrow.  And I hope that Clevinger has figured things out in his short time at Lake County.

I hope he looks excellent and is dealt shortly after that.

Plesac otoh can sit in LC and wait for his turn. He did the crime, he can do the time. McKenzie certainly earned another start with an impressive performance on Saturday.

The Indians are not going to get full value for Clevinger if they trade him before the trade deadline.  And the team isn't in the position to get worse so that they can get rid of him.

Plesac is one of the best 28 players in the organization, whether it's as an SP or as an RP.  IMO, he should be added to the roster in the next week.  The Indians are better with him than having him pitch simulated games in Lake County.

I don't believe that.

How many people said, Trevor Bauer, killed his trade value?

That seemed to work out pretty well. There will be numerous teams looking to cut salary this offseason that will affect the demand directly as much or more than his incident.

I'm not suggesting trading Clevinger for the sake of trading him. They'd have to get their price. It's not a fool's errand or to teach him a lesson.

I  don't buy the belief the team gets worse without him. How?

They'd have to get a return that brings now impact. When the Rays dealt Archer, they got better. When the Tribe traded Bauer, they got better. They could make a deal and get better now and for later.

I'd add this is an ordinary team with plenty of potential. They'll have to make bold decisions to improve this team in the short term, including possibly dealing an arm like Clev. It all depends on the return, and if they don't address the offense, what is the point?

If this were a normal season, I might agree with you.  But, it isn't, and it's very questionable that equal value can be obtained.  And further, Clevinger hasn't returned to his 2019 form.  So what value do you think other teams will put on him?  My guess is that they will expect a discount for his poor start to this season.  And I don't think that the Indians should trade him based on that reduced value.

Beyond that, regardless of your claims, and without attempting to get confrontational, it does appear that you want him off the team.  In other words, it appears that you do want to trade him for the sake of trading him.  And you've backed this up by suggesting a trade immediately after the Covid incident, and subsequently justified this position by referring to alleged off-the-field actions that paint Clevinger in a negative light.  And this position was taken before McKenzie stepped on the mound for the first time.


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Willie Hood
(@willhoo99)
Member Moderator
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 187
08/25/2020 7:54 pm  
Posted by: @detdawg
Posted by: @willhoo99
Posted by: @detdawg
Posted by: @willhoo99
Posted by: @detdawg

So, apparently Clevinger will be added back to the roster tomorrow and start Wednesday's game against the Twins, replacing Plutko in the rotation.

In a perfect world, I would have kept Clevinger at the Alternate Site for another 5 days or so, and started Plesac instead.  My reasoning is that Clevinger is still trying to get back to his 2019 form, and Plesac has been pitching better than him.  IMO, it's better for the team to have Clevinger continuing to work on fixing his game, which is easier to do in a simulated game.  That said, I wouldn't want Clevinger's stay at Lake County to continue until it caused a year's delay in his scheduled FA, which is currently 2023.

All that said, I realize it's not a perfect world, and Clevinger has more senority than Plesac, is considered the better pitcher when healthy, and should be given certain considerations when determining who should be added back to the roster first.  So, I understand the decision made by the Indians.  I just think the team would be better off if Plesac were given the start tomorrow.  And I hope that Clevinger has figured things out in his short time at Lake County.

I hope he looks excellent and is dealt shortly after that.

Plesac otoh can sit in LC and wait for his turn. He did the crime, he can do the time. McKenzie certainly earned another start with an impressive performance on Saturday.

The Indians are not going to get full value for Clevinger if they trade him before the trade deadline.  And the team isn't in the position to get worse so that they can get rid of him.

Plesac is one of the best 28 players in the organization, whether it's as an SP or as an RP.  IMO, he should be added to the roster in the next week.  The Indians are better with him than having him pitch simulated games in Lake County.

I don't believe that.

How many people said, Trevor Bauer, killed his trade value?

That seemed to work out pretty well. There will be numerous teams looking to cut salary this offseason that will affect the demand directly as much or more than his incident.

I'm not suggesting trading Clevinger for the sake of trading him. They'd have to get their price. It's not a fool's errand or to teach him a lesson.

I  don't buy the belief the team gets worse without him. How?

They'd have to get a return that brings now impact. When the Rays dealt Archer, they got better. When the Tribe traded Bauer, they got better. They could make a deal and get better now and for later.

I'd add this is an ordinary team with plenty of potential. They'll have to make bold decisions to improve this team in the short term, including possibly dealing an arm like Clev. It all depends on the return, and if they don't address the offense, what is the point?

If this were a normal season, I might agree with you.  But, it isn't, and it's very questionable that equal value can be obtained.  And further, Clevinger hasn't returned to his 2019 form.  So what value do you think other teams will put on him?  My guess is that they will expect a discount for his poor start to this season.  And I don't think that the Indians should trade him based on that reduced value.

Beyond that, regardless of your claims, and without attempting to get confrontational, it does appear that you want him off the team.  In other words, it appears that you do want to trade him for the sake of trading him.  And you've backed this up by suggesting a trade immediately after the Covid incident, and subsequently justified this position by referring to alleged off-the-field actions that paint Clevinger in a negative light.  And this position was taken before McKenzie stepped on the mound for the first time.

All good DD. I'm not taking our conversation as confrontational at all. 2 baseball minds with different opinions, and we agree on plenty of stuff other times. Agreeing / disagreeing doesn't make either more right/wrong and we can converse without it leading to anything more to varying views. Truth is, I appreciate the conversation and engagement and I respect your POV's.

All of that is true.  I've been an advocate for moving Clevinger, Bauer, and Kluber. Bauer is one of my favorite personalities in baseball too. That said, they don't have to make a deal now, I do expect one this offseason at some point. When Clev is gone, I won't cry about it, lol!

Again, I'd point to the Bauer deal- he brought a haul even amid a mediocre year. Hopefully, he performs great and pushes his value up if that is now / later.

I  don't see a lengthy path forward either way. And the best deal may be now with three playoffs to 2 playoffs on the line for a contender like ATL.


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buckaroo
(@buckaroo)
Draft Prospect
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 10
08/25/2020 8:07 pm  
Posted by: @willhoo99
Posted by: @detdawg
Posted by: @willhoo99
Posted by: @detdawg
Posted by: @willhoo99
Posted by: @detdawg

So, apparently Clevinger will be added back to the roster tomorrow and start Wednesday's game against the Twins, replacing Plutko in the rotation.

In a perfect world, I would have kept Clevinger at the Alternate Site for another 5 days or so, and started Plesac instead.  My reasoning is that Clevinger is still trying to get back to his 2019 form, and Plesac has been pitching better than him.  IMO, it's better for the team to have Clevinger continuing to work on fixing his game, which is easier to do in a simulated game.  That said, I wouldn't want Clevinger's stay at Lake County to continue until it caused a year's delay in his scheduled FA, which is currently 2023.

All that said, I realize it's not a perfect world, and Clevinger has more senority than Plesac, is considered the better pitcher when healthy, and should be given certain considerations when determining who should be added back to the roster first.  So, I understand the decision made by the Indians.  I just think the team would be better off if Plesac were given the start tomorrow.  And I hope that Clevinger has figured things out in his short time at Lake County.

I hope he looks excellent and is dealt shortly after that.

Plesac otoh can sit in LC and wait for his turn. He did the crime, he can do the time. McKenzie certainly earned another start with an impressive performance on Saturday.

The Indians are not going to get full value for Clevinger if they trade him before the trade deadline.  And the team isn't in the position to get worse so that they can get rid of him.

Plesac is one of the best 28 players in the organization, whether it's as an SP or as an RP.  IMO, he should be added to the roster in the next week.  The Indians are better with him than having him pitch simulated games in Lake County.

I don't believe that.

How many people said, Trevor Bauer, killed his trade value?

That seemed to work out pretty well. There will be numerous teams looking to cut salary this offseason that will affect the demand directly as much or more than his incident.

I'm not suggesting trading Clevinger for the sake of trading him. They'd have to get their price. It's not a fool's errand or to teach him a lesson.

I  don't buy the belief the team gets worse without him. How?

They'd have to get a return that brings now impact. When the Rays dealt Archer, they got better. When the Tribe traded Bauer, they got better. They could make a deal and get better now and for later.

I'd add this is an ordinary team with plenty of potential. They'll have to make bold decisions to improve this team in the short term, including possibly dealing an arm like Clev. It all depends on the return, and if they don't address the offense, what is the point?

If this were a normal season, I might agree with you.  But, it isn't, and it's very questionable that equal value can be obtained.  And further, Clevinger hasn't returned to his 2019 form.  So what value do you think other teams will put on him?  My guess is that they will expect a discount for his poor start to this season.  And I don't think that the Indians should trade him based on that reduced value.

Beyond that, regardless of your claims, and without attempting to get confrontational, it does appear that you want him off the team.  In other words, it appears that you do want to trade him for the sake of trading him.  And you've backed this up by suggesting a trade immediately after the Covid incident, and subsequently justified this position by referring to alleged off-the-field actions that paint Clevinger in a negative light.  And this position was taken before McKenzie stepped on the mound for the first time.

All good DD. I'm not taking our conversation as confrontational at all. 2 baseball minds with different opinions, and we agree on plenty of stuff other times. Agreeing / disagreeing doesn't make either more right/wrong and we can converse without it leading to anything more to varying views. Truth is, I appreciate the conversation and engagement and I respect your POV's.

All of that is true.  I've been an advocate for moving Clevinger, Bauer, and Kluber. Bauer is one of my favorite personalities in baseball too. That said, they don't have to make a deal now, I do expect one this offseason at some point. When Clev is gone, I won't cry about it, lol!

Again, I'd point to the Bauer deal- he brought a haul even amid a mediocre year. Hopefully, he performs great and pushes his value up if that is now / later.

I  don't see a lengthy path forward either way. And the best deal may be now with three playoffs to 2 playoffs on the line for a contender like ATL.

Wow, WahooPreacher, never realized that you are not a Clevinger fan...even before this all happened.    May I ask what it is that made you prefer to unload him?   I love watching him pitch..when healthy his stuff is as filthy as just about anyone in baseball.   


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DetDawg
(@detdawg)
Low-A dreamer
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 211
08/25/2020 8:21 pm  

@willhoo99

I'm glad we can keep this conversation as a baseball discussion.  I as well appreciate your views and insights.

If Clevinger is able to return to last year's form, I would hate to get rid of him without getting a king's ransom in return.  IMO, he was one of the top 5 SPs in the game, maybe top 3.  But, if we could get a player(s) in return equal to that value, and recognizing the fact that he's under team control for 2.5 more years, then maybe the Indians should do it, particularly if McKenzie performs well in his next start (although I still worry about his potential for injury).  The Indians, after all, are in dire need of offense.

That said, assuming Clevinger returns to form, it would be hard to bet against Bieber and Clevinger (plus 1 other starter, with the rest in the BP) in the playoffs, even taking into account the Indians' offense.


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Willie Hood
(@willhoo99)
Member Moderator
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 187
08/25/2020 8:31 pm  

@buckaroo

I'm a fan of his performance, but not of him necessarily. There's been a lot of smoke about his personal life. TMZ / Extra type stuff... I won't get into all that, but I see him as a question mark bc of the off the field stuff, injuries, and recent actions which I think are immature. It's not that I have any sort of great disdain for him,  just concerned something is looming around the next bend with him, lol.

I see utilizing him as a trade asset as a means to an end. That is making the club better now and later. I don't see this as a championship-caliber club with or without him. So, what are they doing? To get better will require moving talent to get talent in return. His arb clock is ticking down, and his salary is going up, all in all, I think moving would be the right response.


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Willie Hood
(@willhoo99)
Member Moderator
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 187
08/25/2020 8:35 pm  

Here is the asking price for Clevinger according to Dan Frederico...

https://twitter.com/DanJFederico/status/1298010180001705984?s=19

2 young arms, 1 MIF, 1 OF


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DetDawg
(@detdawg)
Low-A dreamer
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 211
08/25/2020 8:43 pm  
Posted by: @willhoo99

Here is the asking price for Clevinger according to Dan Frederico...

https://twitter.com/DanJFederico/status/1298010180001705984?s=19

2 young arms, 1 MIF, 1 OF

I would hope that isn't the order of either quality or priority.  The Indians need major league or near major-league-ready position players first and foremost, although I certainly wouldn't object to 1 or 2 relatively high-ceiling pitchers that are a couple of years from the majors.


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Willie Hood
(@willhoo99)
Member Moderator
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 187
08/25/2020 8:45 pm  
Posted by: @detdawg
Posted by: @willhoo99

Here is the asking price for Clevinger according to Dan Frederico...

https://twitter.com/DanJFederico/status/1298010180001705984?s=19

2 young arms, 1 MIF, 1 OF

I would hope that isn't the order of either quality or priority.  The Indians need major league or near major-league-ready position players first and foremost, although I certainly wouldn't object to 1 or 2 relatively high-ceiling pitchers that are a couple of years from the majors.

Yeah, I think we could stand if that was in reverse priority, lol.


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Willie Hood
(@willhoo99)
Member Moderator
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 187
08/25/2020 8:54 pm  
Posted by: @detdawg

@willhoo99

I'm glad we can keep this conversation as a baseball discussion.  I as well appreciate your views and insights.

If Clevinger is able to return to last year's form, I would hate to get rid of him without getting a king's ransom in return.  IMO, he was one of the top 5 SPs in the game, maybe top 3.  But, if we could get a player(s) in return equal to that value, and recognizing the fact that he's under team control for 2.5 more years, then maybe the Indians should do it, particularly if McKenzie performs well in his next start (although I still worry about his potential for injury).  The Indians, after all, are in dire need of offense.

That said, assuming Clevinger returns to form, it would be hard to bet against Bieber and Clevinger (plus 1 other starter, with the rest in the BP) in the playoffs, even taking into account the Indians' offense.

I'm not quite as high on him (10-15 range), but he is a high caliber arm. I'd love to see the 2 play off of each other.

I don't have the faith that the bullpen will continue to perform, and they may...I'm a doubter. To the point of the offense, adding at least one productive everyday OF would go a long way for this club.


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DetDawg
(@detdawg)
Low-A dreamer
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 211
08/25/2020 9:24 pm  
Posted by: @willhoo99
Posted by: @detdawg

@willhoo99

I'm glad we can keep this conversation as a baseball discussion.  I as well appreciate your views and insights.

If Clevinger is able to return to last year's form, I would hate to get rid of him without getting a king's ransom in return.  IMO, he was one of the top 5 SPs in the game, maybe top 3.  But, if we could get a player(s) in return equal to that value, and recognizing the fact that he's under team control for 2.5 more years, then maybe the Indians should do it, particularly if McKenzie performs well in his next start (although I still worry about his potential for injury).  The Indians, after all, are in dire need of offense.

That said, assuming Clevinger returns to form, it would be hard to bet against Bieber and Clevinger (plus 1 other starter, with the rest in the BP) in the playoffs, even taking into account the Indians' offense.

I'm not quite as high on him (10-15 range), but he is a high caliber arm. I'd love to see the 2 play off of each other.

I don't have the faith that the bullpen will continue to perform, and they may...I'm a doubter. To the point of the offense, adding at least one productive everyday OF would go a long way for this club.

Maybe I wasn't as clear as I could have been about the BP.  What I meant was that in the playoffs a combo of Bieber, Clevinger, and 1 of Civale, Carrasco, Plesac and McKenzie, would be hard to beat as SPs, and 3 of Civale, Carrasco, Plesac, and McKenzie could be used the strengthen and lengthen the BP, and make it a strength that could compete with any kind of lineup.


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Willie Hood
(@willhoo99)
Member Moderator
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 187
08/25/2020 9:31 pm  
Posted by: @detdawg
Posted by: @willhoo99
Posted by: @detdawg

@willhoo99

I'm glad we can keep this conversation as a baseball discussion.  I as well appreciate your views and insights.

If Clevinger is able to return to last year's form, I would hate to get rid of him without getting a king's ransom in return.  IMO, he was one of the top 5 SPs in the game, maybe top 3.  But, if we could get a player(s) in return equal to that value, and recognizing the fact that he's under team control for 2.5 more years, then maybe the Indians should do it, particularly if McKenzie performs well in his next start (although I still worry about his potential for injury).  The Indians, after all, are in dire need of offense.

That said, assuming Clevinger returns to form, it would be hard to bet against Bieber and Clevinger (plus 1 other starter, with the rest in the BP) in the playoffs, even taking into account the Indians' offense.

I'm not quite as high on him (10-15 range), but he is a high caliber arm. I'd love to see the 2 play off of each other.

I don't have the faith that the bullpen will continue to perform, and they may...I'm a doubter. To the point of the offense, adding at least one productive everyday OF would go a long way for this club.

Maybe I wasn't as clear as I could have been about BP.  What I meant was that in the playoffs a combo of Bieber, Clevinger, and 1 of Civale, Carrasco, Plesac, and McKenzie, would be hard to beat as SPs, and 3 of Civale, Carrasco, Plesac, and McKenzie could be used the strengthen and lengthen the BP, and make it a strength that could compete with any kind of lineup.

Gotcha, I wasn't thinking of that. That does make sense. I've said the 5th spot doesn't matter in the playoffs.

I am curious if Cookie ends up in the bullpen sooner rather than later if he keeps scuffling his next few starts.


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DetDawg
(@detdawg)
Low-A dreamer
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 211
08/25/2020 10:43 pm  

Given the almost total impotence of the OF, I think Naquin should be in the lineup against all pitchers.  He hit well against LHPs last year, and I don't think there are any better options based on the lack of production from everyone else.  


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Edible14
(@edible14)
Short-A newcomer
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 64
08/26/2020 12:47 pm  

I disagree about bringing Plesac up unless it's for a rotation gig. We have seen with Allen and Plutko that having somebody in the bullpen, it's hard to get them back to being ramped up if needed. We need someone to be ready to step in if there is an injury, or if the struggles of Clevinger/Carrasco continue. 


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DetDawg
(@detdawg)
Low-A dreamer
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 211
08/26/2020 4:13 pm  
Posted by: @edible14

I disagree about bringing Plesac up unless it's for a rotation gig. We have seen with Allen and Plutko that having somebody in the bullpen, it's hard to get them back to being ramped up if needed. We need someone to be ready to step in if there is an injury, or if the struggles of Clevinger/Carrasco continue. 

Edible, you make a valid point.  My thought was that Plesac would strengthen the BP and give Francona/Alomar 1 more guy he can rely on.  But, as you point out, it's not that simple, and Plesac appears to be far and away the best depth option if one of the current SPs goes down or needs to be replaced due to performance.


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