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DetDawg
(@detdawg)
Low-A dreamer
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 211
09/28/2020 8:57 am  

The Indians have the top position and pitcher player fWARs in the majors for 2020, with Ramirez having a fWAR of 3.4, and Bieber having a fWAR of 3.2.

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2020&month=0&season1=2020&ind=0

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2020&month=0&season1=2020&ind=0


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CalBuckeyeRob
(@calbuckeyerob)
Draft Prospect
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 18
09/28/2020 9:49 am  
Posted by: @themaven
Posted by: @edible14

I am reminded of a common complaint about the Lee, Martinez and Sabathia trades. A lot was made during those trades about how we traded for quantity over quality, we didn't get back those high ranking prospects. It was, in some ways, negatively compared to the Andy Marte trade (or, more generously, the Blake/Santana trade).

The thing is, in both the CC and Lee trades, the guys who made those trades worth it were considered either the second or third pieces. Knapp was supposed to be the prize of the Lee trade, but he blew out his shoulder. Instead Carrasco is *still here*. LaPorta was the key of the CC trade, where Michael Brantley was the PBTNL. 

More than likely to me is that Cantillo or Arias end up being the jewels of this trade. 

While LaPorta was the blue chipper in the Sabathia trade and Brantley the PTBNL,Carrasco was most certainly the main pitcher in the Lee deal.

Carrasco was the #1 prospect in the organization https://www.minorleagueball.com/2008/10/28/648643/philadelphia-phillies-top and rated 43rd overall https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/8506/top-100-prospects-the-best-of-the-best/

Knapp was a recent draftee with a history of injury problems who flashed in low A that season.More of a lottery pick than anything.

Donald was a highly rated second basemen and Marson an already defensively ready catcher.

 

By the time of that trade, Carrasco had dropped on the prospect list as he was struggling at AAA.  Marson and Donald had stopped hitting as they moved up that year. Knapp was the key to that deal when they made it and he was already injured at the time of the trade. It worked out because several years later Carrasco panned out.  But conceptually, it was a bad trade for a super elite starter with years of service time left.


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DetDawg
(@detdawg)
Low-A dreamer
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 211
09/28/2020 11:36 am  

My recollection is that the Indians were unaware of Knapp's injury, and that the Indians believed the Phillies misled them regarding his physical health.  I don't think they traded with the Phillies for a number of years following the trade as a result.

In a bit of trivia, Lee was traded at least 3 times during his peak years, and the Indians were the only team that got what might be considered fair value in exchange.  Carrasco has a career fWAR with the Indians of 25.0.


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Themaven
(@themaven)
Short-A newcomer
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 50
09/29/2020 2:02 am  
Posted by: @calbuckeyerob
Posted by: @themaven
Posted by: @edible14

I am reminded of a common complaint about the Lee, Martinez and Sabathia trades. A lot was made during those trades about how we traded for quantity over quality, we didn't get back those high ranking prospects. It was, in some ways, negatively compared to the Andy Marte trade (or, more generously, the Blake/Santana trade).

The thing is, in both the CC and Lee trades, the guys who made those trades worth it were considered either the second or third pieces. Knapp was supposed to be the prize of the Lee trade, but he blew out his shoulder. Instead Carrasco is *still here*. LaPorta was the key of the CC trade, where Michael Brantley was the PBTNL. 

More than likely to me is that Cantillo or Arias end up being the jewels of this trade. 

While LaPorta was the blue chipper in the Sabathia trade and Brantley the PTBNL,Carrasco was most certainly the main pitcher in the Lee deal.

Carrasco was the #1 prospect in the organization https://www.minorleagueball.com/2008/10/28/648643/philadelphia-phillies-top and rated 43rd overall https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/8506/top-100-prospects-the-best-of-the-best/

Knapp was a recent draftee with a history of injury problems who flashed in low A that season.More of a lottery pick than anything.

Donald was a highly rated second basemen and Marson an already defensively ready catcher.

 

By the time of that trade, Carrasco had dropped on the prospect list as he was struggling at AAA.  Marson and Donald had stopped hitting as they moved up that year. Knapp was the key to that deal when they made it and he was already injured at the time of the trade. It worked out because several years later Carrasco panned out.  But conceptually, it was a bad trade for a super elite starter with years of service time left.

The Phillies were after Halladay,but the Jays wanted JA Happ and the Phillies refused to trade him.So the they turned to the Tribe who were asking far less for Lee,but the Tribe wanted Drabek as well as Carrasco,they finally settled on Knapp,Donald and Marson instead of Drabek,who eventually was traded for Halladay.So, yes the deal doesn't get made without Knapp but he was hardly the key player in the deal,he was the tipping point player like Miller and Hedges were in the Clevinger trade.

 

 


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DetDawg
(@detdawg)
Low-A dreamer
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 211
09/29/2020 8:07 am  
Posted by: @themaven
Posted by: @calbuckeyerob
Posted by: @themaven
Posted by: @edible14

I am reminded of a common complaint about the Lee, Martinez and Sabathia trades. A lot was made during those trades about how we traded for quantity over quality, we didn't get back those high ranking prospects. It was, in some ways, negatively compared to the Andy Marte trade (or, more generously, the Blake/Santana trade).

The thing is, in both the CC and Lee trades, the guys who made those trades worth it were considered either the second or third pieces. Knapp was supposed to be the prize of the Lee trade, but he blew out his shoulder. Instead Carrasco is *still here*. LaPorta was the key of the CC trade, where Michael Brantley was the PBTNL. 

More than likely to me is that Cantillo or Arias end up being the jewels of this trade. 

While LaPorta was the blue chipper in the Sabathia trade and Brantley the PTBNL,Carrasco was most certainly the main pitcher in the Lee deal.

Carrasco was the #1 prospect in the organization https://www.minorleagueball.com/2008/10/28/648643/philadelphia-phillies-top and rated 43rd overall https://www.baseballprospectus.com/news/article/8506/top-100-prospects-the-best-of-the-best/

Knapp was a recent draftee with a history of injury problems who flashed in low A that season.More of a lottery pick than anything.

Donald was a highly rated second basemen and Marson an already defensively ready catcher.

 

By the time of that trade, Carrasco had dropped on the prospect list as he was struggling at AAA.  Marson and Donald had stopped hitting as they moved up that year. Knapp was the key to that deal when they made it and he was already injured at the time of the trade. It worked out because several years later Carrasco panned out.  But conceptually, it was a bad trade for a super elite starter with years of service time left.

The Phillies were after Halladay,but the Jays wanted JA Happ and the Phillies refused to trade him.So the they turned to the Tribe who were asking far less for Lee,but the Tribe wanted Drabek as well as Carrasco,they finally settled on Knapp,Donald and Marson instead of Drabek,who eventually was traded for Halladay.So, yes the deal doesn't get made without Knapp but he was hardly the key player in the deal,he was the tipping point player like Miller and Hedges were in the Clevinger trade.

 

 

To say that Knapp was the tipping point player doesn't do him justice.  He was a low level player with arguably TOR SP talent, and arguably the key player in the trade, as noted in this linked article.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/prospect-watch-pitching-behemoths/

He and Carrasco were the key players.  Carrasco was a Top 50 player with a perceived FOR ceiling who had taken a step back.  Knapp was a top 50 player per Baseball America.  When you're a Top 50 player at A level, that means the player has a high ceiling, and possibly high risk.  But, in any event, a prospect that was quite a bit more talented than Miller and Hedges.  The fact that injuries cut him down doesn't change that fact.

This post was modified 3 weeks ago by DetDawg

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buckaroo
(@buckaroo)
Draft Prospect
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 10
09/30/2020 9:42 pm  

Naylor is a keeper.  That is all. (I have to say)


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Edible14
(@edible14)
Short-A newcomer
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 64
10/01/2020 2:40 am  

Naylor is probably our 1B next year. I can't see them bringing back Santana the way things ended. And clearly they don't think much of either Bradley or Bauers. Santana's last AB will go down as a GIDP in the 8th with the bases loaded. He could be back only because the market will likely suck and they might get him back cheap. 

I'm ready to be done with Lindor. 1-8 with a walk, a double, 3 Ks and a GIDP this series. He disappeared similarly against the Yankees in 2017. Hernandez was better than him this year. Lindor is supposed to be the leader of this team, and I think that's ultimately the most damning thing you can say at this point. The team fails to show up, and a lot of that is on him. Jose gets guys amped. Hell, Naquin and Naylor play with fire. I don't see any evidence of Frankie being that kind of leader. I'm guessing Freeman will be our SS by June. Maybe Chang will start the year there. 

Hand doesn't deserve to take that on the chin. 3 cheap base hits that all could have been outs. Two of them hit well below the strike zone. He still probably gets traded in the offseason. Sad way for him to go out.

This team is going to look radically different next season. This is Jose Ramirez' team now, for better or worse. 


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BZRD
 BZRD
(@bzrd)
Draft Prospect
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 11
10/01/2020 1:40 pm  

2021 We need a real CF.  DeShields is as lost as last years Easter egg.  His decision making is second only to Santana as being awful.  Carlos Santana has the lowest baseball IQ I have ever seen.  When he reacts he is great when he thinks he is wrong.  Nobody needs cleanup hitter with a walk first mentality!  And who isn't tired of seeing hi ground out to medium right field?  Last year he shortened his swing, stopped pulling the ball and was great but he ALWAYS backslides.  Also need at least one decent corner outfielder.


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rsamak
(@rsamak)
Draft Prospect
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 13
10/01/2020 2:47 pm  

Why DeShields in center for almost all of the 2nd half. His D has been poor for the season and atrocious for the last several weeks. Tribe has CF's that can at least catch a ball. Carrasco was cruising prior to DeShield giving up the triple to start the 4th. Cookie probably couldn't have gone much past the 4th but what a kick in the a--. His D gives up more than his offence provides.

With 2 outs it was probably the right move but pinch hitting for Naylor in the 7th I didn't like. Especially with a number of players that looked lost at the plate. It turned out great and got a good pitcher removed so can't complain. Naylor hits lefty pitchers well.


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Edible14
(@edible14)
Short-A newcomer
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 64
10/02/2020 1:13 am  

I don't get the hate for DeShields. I would have preferred that any of Johnson, Allen, Zimmer, or Mercado outplayed him and earned the spot. They didn't though. Why do we continue harping on this one guy here (and on twitter) who was... our #9 hitter. 

Across the board there are failures to talk about. Roberto Perez couldn't hit worth anything all year. Naquin went ice cold at the worst time. Lindor didn't step up. Santana failed to get to his power. The bullpen imploded, as did both Bieber and Carrasco. 

Not sure why we're so intent on singling out DeShields as if there were better options behind him. There weren't. 


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Willie Hood
(@willhoo99)
Member Moderator
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 187
10/02/2020 6:54 am  

@edible14

My guess is because he's the perceived return for Corey Kluber. While they did acquire Emmanuel Clase, obviously, he never took the mound. Additionally, the freed up resources were repurposed with the signing of Cesar Hernandez. 

DeShields was the perfect last man on the roster bc of defensive value, speed, and bunting abilities. While he didn't impress in any facet, he should never have been the everyday CF. As was stated...there were no better options.

The number of resources utilized to acquire OF talent with the results is befuddling. Between draft picks, FA signings, trades, etc., there's been very little resolved long term. They have future options but how legitimate are the possibilities, and how do we even weigh the results of the 2020 season with these young players?


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Themaven
(@themaven)
Short-A newcomer
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 50
10/03/2020 8:14 am  

@willhoo99

DeShields deserves the disdain coming his way.

He is a terrible center fielder and his offensive contributions were minimal.He was so little thought of in Texas that he was replaced by a 30 yo converted infielder(Danny Santana) and the only reason he was included in the Kluber trade was to even out the money.Texas was going to cut him loose before spring training.

There most certainly were replacements available,both Mercado and Zimmer are lights out better defenders than DeShields,and on a team with the best pitching staff in baseball that can make a huge difference.................and it did.


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BZRD
 BZRD
(@bzrd)
Draft Prospect
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 11
10/04/2020 11:28 am  

To say that Delino DeShields Jr. was the best option in Centerfield is not a testament to DeShields but a commentary on the overall quality of Indians outfielders.


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Edible14
(@edible14)
Short-A newcomer
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 64
10/06/2020 10:38 am  

Keep an eye on the catcher position this offseason. For a team as strapped as the Indians claim to be, it would be weird to spend nearly $9m between Hedges and Perez. Both are great framers and defenders, but the looming change to automated strike zones could make them both unplayable in a year or two. 

My assumption is that the league will continue to tinker and refine the robo ump thing in 2021. Having their partner leagues - Atlantic, AAPB, Frontier - use them and work out the kinks. I would assume MLB gets it the year after they implement it in the minors. Which makes it a good thing that essentially they can take it year by year with each of Hedges and Perez. But they will need a more offensive minded catcher at some point. Bo Naylor being the obvious hope. But if there's some sudden news on robo umps coming sooner than later, it could lead to them non tendering Hedges or declining Berto's option. 


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Themaven
(@themaven)
Short-A newcomer
Joined: 4 months ago
Posts: 50
10/06/2020 11:03 am  

@edible14

I've been saying the Perez' option won't be picked up since the Clevinger trade was made.

Hedges and Leon can both be signed for the 5.5 million(5 million net) Roberto is slated to make,with only a slight drop off in defense and the usual non existent offense.

The Mets(for one) would be a good trade partner for Perez, but with the expected buyers market in free agency I can't imagine any team would give up much, if anything, for Perez and his two option years,for the same reason the Indians are going to dump him.

If/when Lindor gets traded, Kelbert Ruiz from the Dodgers is a likely target,the Mets have a nice catching prospect in Francisco Alvarez as well.


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